The ZIZO Effect

Ep 6 From Motivation to Reward: Building a Culture of Recognition 

• ZIZO Technologies Inc. • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Join hosts Andrew Reimers and Jimmy Chebat as they delve into the real drivers of workplace motivation, beyond the paycheck. In this episode, we explore the interplay between intrinsic and extrinsic motivations and discuss how effectively crafted rewards can significantly enhance workplace productivity and satisfaction. We'll uncover the psychology behind motivation, discuss the fine balance of incentives, and share personal anecdotes and professional insights that bring the concept to life.

Andrew Reimers:

Welcome back to The ZIZO Effect podcast, where we zoom in on the mechanics behind gamification and workplace motivation. Today's focus? Unpacking the real drivers behind our work, what motivates us beyond the paycheck, and how to craft rewards that genuinely inspire. Diving into intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, we'll explore the key elements that fuel engagement and how diverse rewards can cater to these motivations effectively. It's all about finding the perfect balance of incentives to elevate your work environment. Get ready, it's game time. Hello and welcome back to The ZIZO Effect podcast. I'm your host, Andrew J Reimers, and I have five really bad tattoos.

Jimmy Chebat:

And I'm your co-host. Jimmy Chebat and I ran a tough mutter.

Andrew Reimers:

Do you know what a tough mutter is? I do know what a tough mutter is. I respect the hell out of tough mutter.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, it's been a while since I've done it. I don't know if they still do it, but that was fun. It's a nice 12-mile obstacle course, a lot of fun. We did it with our team.

Andrew Reimers:

Yeah, something I'm proud of. It's a badge of honor. That's really cool. Yeah, I have five bad tattoos. I have six tattoos total. One of them is behind my ear standing red buffalo in honor of the Buffalo Bills. It's the only tattoo I don't regret.

Jimmy Chebat:

Oh, that's awesome. What are the other five tattoos about?

Andrew Reimers:

Things I'd prefer not to get into, and that's saying something, considering the things I've talked about on this podcast so far.

Jimmy Chebat:

Very true, we'll keep that for another podcast.

Andrew Reimers:

Yeah that'll be for the paid subscribers? Yes, well, for those of you who are listening at home and have been playing along, you know that we love to start each episode with a game that we call.

Jimmy Chebat:

Name the Game.

Andrew Reimers:

And our wonderful talented producers, Emma and Alex, backstage. They are going to play a song from a video game. We have our buzzers set up here and we need to see who can name the game first. Now, as it stands, the record I'm in the lead 3-1-1. Okay, I want to make you say it out loud. What's your record? 1-1-3.

Jimmy Chebat:

No 1-3-1. 1-3-1, yes, I don't know why I said 1-1-3. I was working my way back. You're trying to get those extra tie points.

Andrew Reimers:

Yes, yeah, no, I get it. I see right through you. We'll call them loser points. Yeah, it's like in hockey, perfect, well, Alex, Emma, if you could please cue up the song and let's see who can name the game first. Hand on the table. Hand on the table, here we go.

Jimmy Chebat:

That's an easy one, at least for me. My son's been playing it for years and years. Got a ton of inspiration from it for ZIZO Fortnite, is it Fortnite? Is it Fortnite? Yeah correct, ding ding, ding, ding, ding, ding ding. Pumping crowd noise, all right, awesome. I think this is closer.

Andrew Reimers:

That brings you a little bit closer. I am still in the lead for now.

Jimmy Chebat:

We've got a few more episodes.

Andrew Reimers:

But hey, this is. This is just the first half of the season, my friend.

Andrew Reimers:

So, we're still getting into it, but I do want to let the people know at home because of the feedback we've gotten and some of the analytics we see. Everybody wants to name the game and they tune in and they get to participate. But you know what we're going to do we're going to make them wait till the end of the episode before they get a chance to name the game. I love the strategy and we'll have a prize ready for them. Yes, but that leads us into then why we're here. Yes, we are a gamification podcast after all and, as we said in the opening, we're going to be talking about motivation. And, jimmy, let me start by asking you why do people go to work?

Jimmy Chebat:

It's a great question and I would assume the easiest answer is money. Right, we're all motivated to get paid. Nobody's going to do anything for free. But if we get into the deeper definitions, there's different types of motivation. They're called intrinsic and extrinsic. Simple definition, I'll go off Webster's dictionary intrinsic motivation driven by internal rewards doing something because it's interesting or enjoyable. So internally you're not driven by, you're driven from your own belief systems. Extrinsic is driven by external rewards. So doing something to earn a reward or avoid punishment.

Andrew Reimers:

Avoiding punishment. Yes, I was extrinsically motivated to do my homework when I was younger.

Jimmy Chebat:

Oh yeah, you get a failing grade, maybe a punishment getting your Nintendo taken away. Getting it taken away, yeah, getting it taken away, no that's great, no, and that you know really.

Andrew Reimers:

Of course, we love to start with the official definitions, but I want to talk some examples of. Let's start with intrinsic motivation, Personal growth. Think about an employee that we have working here. I'll include myself on that. You know where we'll take on a challenging project, let's say a podcast, for instance, a new skill, and I can tell you that I am driven by the desire for personal growth and expanding my creative mind, and I take pride in what we do here and I get a lot of fulfillment just from sitting here, having these conversations with you, sharing it with our audience at home. The personal growth aspect is something that I love about what we're doing here and I think is a great example of intrinsic motivation.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, and you know, I've watched you and your son. You know start to do your own podcast getting him involved in getting that intrinsic motivation kind of built into and baked into his personality, which is awesome. I loved seeing that. And yeah, personal growth is a major part of intrinsic growth, a passion for work and that's kind of like an extension, like if you can love what you do, what's that saying?

Andrew Reimers:

You never work a day in your life.

Jimmy Chebat:

Absolutely, and you know I've been blessed and to be able to do everything that I love business, I love creating, I love having a vision and seeing it come to life, and so if you love what you're doing, that's an another example of intrinsic motivation.

Andrew Reimers:

It is, and you know, one more that I can think of that I find to be maybe a little more rare nowadays, I would say, and that isn't a knock on the modern workforce, just to make that clear.

Jimmy Chebat:

I think we're getting a reputation.

Andrew Reimers:

We are getting a reputation and we are aware of it. We're a couple older guys talking about things that. Anyway, we hear your feedback. We just want you to know we're listening. We've got that disclaimer yes, didn't know we're listening. Disclaimer yes, but I digress. Uh, you know, there is the mastery of your craft and there's the intrinsic motivation and the satisfaction of mastering a new skill, for just for you, not for the recognition for you, not for her man, for you now, as I say this in a worldwide podcast that's available everywhere and, uh, attention for it. You know, maybe I'm not the best example for this, but really it is just about bettering yourself, and that could be just picking one thing every day. You want to be a little bit better at and improving over time, and not just so people tell you you're a great person or tell you you're a great worker. You do it because it's a matter of pride.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, and you know what's funny about mastery, which is in the intrinsic column, right? There are tools out there now that use extrinsic mechanics right, Some game mechanics to help you measure that, right? So things like getting your streaks or seeing your score like line graphs If you're doing an app and you're measuring your results and you're seeing that line graph going up and up and up, so you're actually able to measure your mastery. Again, that kind of ties into personal growth, passion for work and ultimately becoming a master of your domain. Maybe that's the wrong term, but master at your craft, I think, is a better saying. I'm out.

Andrew Reimers:

What? No, I mean, you're a Seinfeld reference. Oh, which was that? Is that what that was? Oh, yes, Great catch.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yes, we won't get into it. Maybe we can throw that up on the screen there to show people of that specific episode and that, I believe, was Kramer.

Andrew Reimers:

I'm out.

Jimmy Chebat:

Here we go Into the kitchen. Yeah, first one out in that bet, in that, in that bat. Yes, we'll have to do that.

Andrew Reimers:

Well, Jimmy, let's switch it over to extrinsic motivators. Why don't you start out? What's an example for our folks at home?

Jimmy Chebat:

Well, I mean commissions, right? So, commission, we're all motivated by money. I think that is probably the universal motivation tool is hey, you do something, you get some cash for it. Right, you come to work, you get paid to do your job Ideally yeah. I mean, most people are not doing things for free. Some people are passionate about their work. They'll do it for less pay. Yes, I think teachers are a great example. They don't-.

Andrew Reimers:

You got a musician right here, man. Oh, you got a free beer, I'll take it.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, you love what you're doing, you're intrinsically motivated. But a commission check or a bonus check for completing a project, completing it successfully, that's a motivator, that's an extrinsic motivator that people are. It's used universally, especially in departments like sales, yes, which is they get rewarded for success.

Andrew Reimers:

So that's one example, yeah, you know. Another one that comes to mind is the idea. You know the concept and I think it's evolved over time. Is it employee of the month? Yes, when I think of that, for some reason it makes me think of like the 1980s I don't know why In early 90s. I think it's because my mom worked in a supermarket and they would have an employee of the month and the photo just looked old. Anyway.

Jimmy Chebat:

Coming to America, right, wasn't that in the Coming to America? I don't recall the scene. Maybe we can find it in post-production and throw it up there, but that's you know. First you start with the fries and you know, I forget the name. I'm going to butcher it.

Andrew Reimers:

That's a good one. No, we'll have to make a note of that. That is hilarious. You know there's the employee of the month, but I've been there and I you know it's funny in my past life. We have a trophy.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, I didn't know if you had a new word for it. No, none of the trophies, and I think you've mentioned it.

Andrew Reimers:

It was collections man. I wasn't necessarily intrinsically motivated by doing collections. I mean, granted, I was proud at my abilities and I felt like I was pretty good at what I did. But no, I wanted to be on top of that leaderboard. I wanted to be on that trophy that was displayed in the middle of the office for everybody to see. And you talked earlier about not doing it for recognition. This is absolutely for recognition.

Jimmy Chebat:

For sure. No, it's. I think getting that recognition is something that you know can really drive some people to perform at higher levels, um, especially if they're close to that right. So if you're amongst the leaders, but maybe not number one, and you're seeing other people's names and you're like I'm capable of doing that, that's where you get that little bit of lift, and I think the extrinsic motivation is what we leverage at ZIZO to really get that 5, 10, 15, 20, 30% lift.

Andrew Reimers:

And that's a perfect transition because, really, where I wanted to go next and I wanted to talk to you intrinsic motivation and the impact on performance. What have you seen in your experiences with your businesses, especially from an intrinsic standpoint, the impact on performance?

Jimmy Chebat:

I think long-term intrinsic motivation has more shelf life. Right, it lasts a little bit longer. It's not something that you have to constantly try to reinvent and reengage, it's just innate. So it's something that you don't have to work on. The individuals have that themselves when, extrinsically, you're going to get those short boosts, those performance boosts, here and there, and you have to actively work on that. So I feel like, if you can get a balance of both and I do have a thought on how you can use extrinsic tools and motivators to build intrinsic motivation Do tell, yeah, and you had said it before about getting the recognition right, it's an extrinsic motivator.

Jimmy Chebat:

Hey, we're going to reward the top performer with an employee of the month. You're going to be recognized and that's going to be for life. Right, that's a net trophy. You said it, it's 2012. That's 12 years ago and it's a long time and you still remember it.

Jimmy Chebat:

You're in the record books, it's in history, it's archived, but what happens is over time. When you're building things like this, when you have leaderboards or you have records and you have employee of the month, you start to get a sense of purpose and also a sense of belonging, which falls into the intrinsic category, when you're building a community of healthy competition and we did. The last episode was about the do's and don'ts you don't want the competition to become adversarial, you don't want it to be, and again, some of the do's and don'ts is fairness, right, equality and equity and giving everybody an equal opportunity to win and succeed. When people feel it's unfair and unbalanced, you know you're going to feel ostracized and you're not going to have that sense of purpose or sense of belonging. I should say, if you do it correctly, you can get that perfect balance and you can maximize on the impact of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.

Andrew Reimers:

You know, it really makes me think of a story that my wife told me. Now we talked on our last episode. I'd spoken with Tom Wright, owner of ODL Orthodontics Lab. They manufacture orthodontics products and they have an essentially an assembly line of wire benders and these people have to go through rigorous tests to make sure that they're able to do the job. You have to bend wires by hand, to very specific instructions, because everybody's mouth is different. And they create retainers, appliances for braces. Now they're extrinsically motivated because they receive bonuses based on how much production they can get out. Now, of course, there's quality involved in there as well, but what I love and I think it's a great example of what you just described is every once in a while they create these retainers and they'll get a picture in the mail or they'll get an email from a child, from a middle schooler, who just got rid of their braces finally. Or maybe they're in high school and they went through all those years of pain and suffering and embarrassment. No, I had braces, it was fine, my kids both.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Reimers:

But smiling with that custom retainer that was made all of a sudden gives them that sense of purpose, gives them that sense of belonging that you mentioned, and they realize that what they're doing is making a difference and they become intrinsically motivated by that, and you know you mentioned something very important there the tasks that they do.

Jimmy Chebat:

It's very detailed but probably mundane right, it's repetitive. I mean you're doing the same things over and over again, and that's kind of where we focus our efforts is those jobs that don't have that clear-cut sense of purpose and you know where you're getting something in return, yeah, and so you have to find different ways to give them that. And you know it's rare, you know when you get that picture back, but when you're getting that reward, that extrinsic reward, you can build it in different ways and then it can remind you of hey, I do have a sense of purpose here, and you know that picture from a client, a customer happy, is really rewarding.

Andrew Reimers:

It sure is. Neither one of us are going to sit here and pretend to be psychologists. We're not going to dive deep into the science of the psychology behind motivation, but just a couple of things that I wanted to mention. Uh, when it comes to the psychological factors and needs that drive people, there is the recognition, autonomy, mastery and purpose. The RAMP theory, as I coined the other day, I'm pretty sure, and I I own that, so we're gonna fact check that yeah, and we talked about, I think, almost all of those outside of the autonomy right.

Jimmy Chebat:

We've talked about the recognition piece, the mastery, purpose, right Sense of purpose. You know, what

Andrew Reimers:

is autonomy? Well, autonomy is the desire for control over your own work and decisions.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, that's a tough one, you know, in certain jobs. To be able to acquire autonomy, you have to have trust from the leadership, right? You have to have trust in yourself, right? I think that to be able to acquire autonomy, you have to have trust from the leadership. Yes, you have to have trust in yourself, right, I think, to be able to make those decisions, because sometimes, being a little insecure, you doubt yourself, it's hard to get that autonomy it is.

Andrew Reimers:

It took me years in my role here, even at ZIZO, where eventually our COO was like you got to stop coming to me with every question. Trust your gut, you're right most of the time and you allow me that sense of autonomy, to be able to take my department, run it, and you guys give me that trust to know that my work is getting done. So that is important, and the thing is, because of that trust, I'm motivated to do the very best job that I can. Great, that's awesome. We love it. Oh good, I'm glad I love being here. Let's talk rewards, though. We spoke last episode about the do's and don'ts of gamification, which you mentioned. Now the same can apply to rewards. But before we get into the do's and don'ts of rewards, let's talk about some of the different kinds of rewards that companies are using to incentivize their people.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, the rewards, and we're going to get into this and probably much deeper in our next episode. We will be getting into incentives and budgets and things like that. I think it's going to be very closely tied. But there's tangible rewards, right, we talk about prizes. You talk about, you know, getting some sort of money. You know that's tangible, you can take it, you can spend it. Gift cards is another type of reward. There's also non-monetary your name on a trophy or a plaque or a poster, social recognition you know, I think you know standing up in front of you know the office and being recognized by your peers and your leadership. I think that's an important part of the reward system, but from an actual tangible type of reward, there's so many different things you can do and I'd love to dive deeper into that as well.

Andrew Reimers:

I'd love if you could share some examples of some businesses that you've maybe worked with or that you're aware of that are specifically designed to reward employees.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, and we've touched on this earlier in the episode here where we talk about repeatable tasks, right, mundane jobs that you're doing over and, over and over again. It's very, very difficult to be intrinsically motivated. You said it yourself it's a job, it's not necessarily a career. Very few people can make a career out of those we're talking about. Frontline workers, people in call centers is specifically what I'm thinking of now. Where you're on the phone, it's not you know whether it's customer service, if it's collections, you're not necessarily getting positive feedback from the customers. They're usually pretty upset, disgruntled, um, and just trying to solve an issue.

Andrew Reimers:

Right right.

Jimmy Chebat:

And those ones is, I think, where you historically see them. We'll call it gamified, where there's trying to create some sort of energy, some extrinsic reward systems, where it motivates people to do more.

Andrew Reimers:

Yeah, I've spoken with companies and gotten feedback. You know, there's Motivocity, there's AwardCo, there's ZIZO. Oh you're talking about companies that offer reward systems. Yes, okay.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, no, there's plenty of those types of companies that are popping up nowadays because it is so effective. You're starting know those are very difficult to administer, they're very time consuming. So now there's companies popping up like you. Most are AwardCo, Motivosity, ZIZO. That streamlines that process for you, so it takes away some of the workload. Yeah, definitely.

Andrew Reimers:

We're going to get in like you you mentioned, a lot deeper into rewards in our next episode, so make sure you do tune in for that, uh, but let's talk about the art of budgeting, uh, at a very high level. Uh, we talked about rewards, we talked about incentives, motivation. Where does that money come from?

Jimmy Chebat:

It's a really good question. We have some really unique and creative ideas, but I feel like you have to wait until the next episode to find out.

Andrew Reimers:

You know what? I think you're right. And that brings us to round two of Name the Game. All right.

Andrew Reimers:

All right, we made it to the end. It is now our audience's chance to participate in the game that is sweeping the globe, mostly because of its super clever name yeah.

Jimmy Chebat:

Name. The Game is just very creative.

Andrew Reimers:

It is no, you're a visionary man and it shines through. So we're going to give our audience a chance at home to be able to participate and name the game Once again, our producers, Emma and Alex. They are going to play a song from a video game.

Andrew Reimers:

We're going to let it play for a little while Now, jimmy, you and I, even if we know it, we're not going to spoil it, but you can get in touch with us on any of our socials our website at wwwplayzizocom, or wherever you get your podcasts, whether that be apple podcast, spotify or youtube. Jimmy, would you like to show them what they can win? Some brand new socks. Get ready for the ultimate in foot fashion, introducing the fabulous ZIZO logo socks made from a lot of cotton and some polyester. These aren't just socks, they're a cloud for your feet, emblazoned with the stylish ZIZO logo. Perfect for every occasion. They promise to keep you comfortable and chic.

Andrew Reimers:

Let's give it up for the prize that steps up your sock game ZIZO logo socks. Now, who's ready to win? Emma, Alex, cue up the song. Okay, so you mentioned earlier that you knew the answer to name the game round one because of your son. Yes, I think it's going to be similar in that people are going to recognize this from their kids playing it, but I believe our Gen Zer listeners hopefully we haven't ostracized and alienated all of them and we still have some.

Jimmy Chebat:

Uh, I think they're gonna know this a lot, uh, or very quickly. It's a very popular game, uh, one that's actually been around for a lot longer than you would think it's it. I believe it originated when we were younger it originated when we were younger.

Andrew Reimers:

The only clue I'll give. I mean, this started as a manual game that you held in your hands and played.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yes.

Andrew Reimers:

That eventually became digitized.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, you're giving some really strong clues there and they made well, we'll leave it at that, but it has been repopularized very recently. It does span multiple generations. Our future guest on our podcast, Richard Gold, is a huge fan of this game.

Andrew Reimers:

Really, yes, I cannot wait to spend the entire half hour talking to him about that.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, I'm curious because he plays it a lot, quite a bit, Like you said. We'll wait to talk to him and let him tell us. I don't want to give too many clues out. No, no, no.

Andrew Reimers:

So, again, hit us up on our socials. Let us know what the game is. Jimmy, this is the close of the first half of Season One of The ZIZO Effect podcast. I want to let you know I'm having a blast. I think these are great conversations. I appreciate you sitting down, taking the time and speaking with me. I think there's a lot of valuable information that we're sharing with the world, and I can't wait to kick off.

Jimmy Chebat:

The second half.

Andrew Reimers:

The second half.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, no, this has been great. I hope our audience feels the same way. I feel the same way as you, and we want to continue doing many, many more episodes and, hopefully, much more seasons. And as long as we're bringing value to our audience, you continue to come back for more.

Andrew Reimers:

So thank you.

Jimmy Chebat:

Congratulations.

Andrew Reimers:

You as well. We'll see you next time you got it. And that's a wrap on today's deep dive into motivation and the art of reward crafting here on The ZIZO Effect podcast, we've explored the essence of what drives us at work and how recognizing these needs leads to more effective reward systems. Next week, we're closing in on the strategies behind successful incentive programs. From navigating budgeting challenges to ensuring rewards resonate with everyone on your team. It's all about maximizing engagement without maxing out your budget. Get ready, it's game time.

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Andrew Reimers

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Jimmy Chebat

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