The ZIZO Effect

Ep 12 Game Over? No, It's Just Begun

• ZIZO Technologies Inc. • Season 1 • Episode 12

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In this episode of The ZIZO Effect podcast, join hosts Andrew J. Reimers and Jimmy Chebat for a grand finale as they revisit the highlights of Season 1. Reflect on the various aspects of gamification that have been discussed and their transformative impact on workplaces.

Listeners will enjoy a fun and insightful recap, including the greatest hits and misses of the season. Andrew and Jimmy also turn their attention to the audience, answering burning questions and addressing insightful comments from listeners. This episode is packed with engaging discussions, personal anecdotes, and plenty of laughs.

Prepare for valuable insights as we wrap up Season 1. And don't miss the exciting announcement about Season 2, coming in August 2024. Get ready—It's Game Time!

Andrew J. Reimers:

Welcome to the grand finale of T he ZIZO Effect podcast, Season 1. In today's episode, we're taking a nostalgic trip down memory lane, exploring all the fascinating aspects of gamification that we've discussed this season and how gamification is transforming workplaces everywhere. We have looked into the history and origins of gaming, tracing how businesses began to adopt its concepts with simple yet effective strategies. From there we moved on to the coining of the term gamification and the development of proper incentive plans that keep employees motivated and engaged. We've also highlighted the importance of data integrity and how clean, accurate data is the backbone of any successful gamification strategy, and, of course, the origin story of ZIZO itself and how it's revolutionizing the modern workplace. So join us as we have fun looking at the greatest hits and misses of this inaugural season of T he ZIZO Effect, and turn our attention to you, our amazing audience. We'll be answering your burning questions, addressing insightful comments and, most importantly, having fun, because that's truly at the heart of what we do. So sit back, relax and get ready to enjoy an exciting season finale because It's Game Time. Hello and w elcome back to The ZIZO Effect podcast. I'm your host, Andrew J Reimers, and this morning I learned the difference between a hippo and a zippo. Do tell. A hippo is a big, gigantic, heavy animal and a zippo is a little lighter.

Jimmy Chebat:

Ultimate dad joke.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Love it.

Jimmy Chebat:

I'm a huge fan of dad jokes, so that one I got right away.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Credit to my mom for that this morning. Thank you, Marlene.

Jimmy Chebat:

That's awesome and my name is Jimmy Chebat and, fun fact about me, I was featured in a national TV commercial for the NFL or with the NFL, so which got me some a little bit of fame in my 15 minutes, I guess. Well, it's more like minutes. seconds, but is it 15 minutes or is it 15 seconds that people are supposed to 15 minutes. Okay, so I'm still owed quite a bit of time, I don't know if we're discounts, but we're not that famous.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Yeah, oh, would you mind telling me a little bit more about what the commercial was for?

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, I was part of a mentorship program, uh, here with Buffalo prep that I'm still um contributing a lot of time with and great program here in Buffalo. But I was nominated for mentor of the year in the state of New York and they featured me in a commercial with the NFL. I did not realize that this was going to be a nationally broadcast commercial when I first agreed to the commercial, but as soon as they started production I was like this is a little too big for it to be just a small local TV commercial. Then it aired on TV and boy did I get a bunch of phone call and text messages like hey, I don't know if you ever seen that meme with Leonardo DiCaprio, yes, but it was a lot.

Andrew J. Reimers:

We'll be sure to pop it up for our audience for anyone unfamiliar. But that's my fun fact. That is so cool and no, I know how much you do, you know, definitely in Buffalo as far as mentorship and things like that and uh, really admirable, really, uh, really cool to see and I'm glad you got a little bit of recognition even if it was slightly less than 15 minutes I'll take the 15 seconds yeah, it was good, absolutely well. Thank you again for joining us. Uh, this is episode 12. Can you believe it? The final episode of season one of T he ZIZO Effect. Jimmy, I never thought my heart would make it this long without giving out from all the pressure when you first came to me about doing a podcast together. Yeah, but my God, this has been fun.

Jimmy Chebat:

You've been great and this whole experience and this journey together has been great. I think we've learned a lot, where we're obviously always looking to improve. I'm excited about season two. Take all the lessons that we've learned throughout the season and you know, I think, for our first season, I think we did great. I'm proud of us. Well, I agree.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Pat on the back, pat on the back. And of course, we couldn't have done it with our fantastic producers, E mma and Alex, who have been here all season. Yes, we're going to save the new producers for season two. We'll introduce them and maybe give them a proper credit. That's some of the feedback I've gotten, is you always talk about Emma and Alex but you don't give them any real credit at the end of the episode. Are we going to start rolling credits then at the end, like, quite literally, like a movie? Wouldn't be a terrible idea. So, E mma and Alex, thank you so much.

Andrew J. Reimers:

And speaking of Emma and Alex, if you've been following along since the beginning, you know that we like to start every single episode of The ZIZO Effect except for episode 11, with a game yes, and that game is called Name the Game. This is where our producers will play a song from a famous video game and it is up to us to see who can name the game first. Now we have our buzzers and I can tell you we've been keeping track all year, more or less, of the records. We have the records and, as it currently stands, I'm in the lead with three correct answers. You have two correct answers. Our producers have two correct answers.

Andrew J. Reimers:

When neither one of us could figure out the game, they stumped us and we decided to leave Zach out of the records because, let's be honest, we kind of just gave him that one. Made it easy for him, yes, but should we share with our audience what the stipulation is? So we have a name the game right now, correct. If I win, it's over, it's over. Yep, okay, you win? Yep, there will be a tiebreaker later on in the episode to see who is the ultimate name, the game champion. But why don't you tell them at home what's going to happen to the loser?

Jimmy Chebat:

Well, according to you, we're going to shave our heads, but that's not going to happen. I have too good of hair and I don't know if it'll grow back.

Andrew J. Reimers:

That's what I'm worried about. Usually I have it up in the man bun and that's kind of what's holding it in.

Jimmy Chebat:

We did talk about maybe face-scaping right.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Yeah, beards, potentially having a clean shaven face for season two, I would say one episode, because I can't maintain a shaven face for the whole year.

Jimmy Chebat:

It's just too much maintenance. I know I'm a low maintenance kind of guy.

Andrew J. Reimers:

But enough talk. I know you're just nervous to lose, so I want to get to the game. Emma, let's hear the song.

Jimmy Chebat:

And this one's an old one, it is, it has to be. It's like 8-bit audio. Jeez, this is Hold on. Is the wrong answer? A negative point?

Andrew J. Reimers:

Well then, I don't have an answer. Now go ahead, guys. We didn't do that in the past. Gosh, it wasn't a Kirby game, was it Okay? No, I'm wrong. I'm out. Jimmy, do you have a?

Jimmy Chebat:

guess I'm going to have to have a guess. Let me hit my button. It's not Mega man, is it? I think we already had Mega man, did we Okay?

Andrew J. Reimers:

yes, I think we did all right. Oh well, you guys won. What was the answer? Wow, dragon quest, that is. I should have gotten that one. I'm actually pretty disappointed in myself. Yeah, I played that one somewhat recently when I got the nes package on the switch.

Jimmy Chebat:

Okay, wow, should we just play the game too, just in case, I mean, we can give myself a tie at least well, now our producers are tied with me, oh there you go, so we'll see.

Andrew J. Reimers:

If yeah, so it's you versus producers we will have to see, but, uh, we'll save the tie-breaking song. I just either way, even if I would have won, I just want to play again later on in the episode. Perfect, but as I like to say, jimmy, it's time to get down to business. So today we're going to do things a little bit different, jimmy. Now, normally we come in with a topic that we plan to discuss and educate our listeners, but you know what? Our listeners have? A lot of great questions that have been coming in all season, and I think it's important that we address those just to help them even further. And I think a lot of people are incorporating gamification into their work, incorporating gamification into their own lives, whether it's through parenting or anything. And I would love to jump into some of the fan mail questions that we've had. Sound good, sounds good to me, excellent let's roll If you don't mind, I'll start us out here, Please do.

Andrew J. Reimers:

We have our first question coming in from Mark Calloway from Death Valley, and I found this really interesting, so I'll ask you.

Jimmy Chebat:

Jimmy, how does gamification cater to different demographics? You know it is a great question because we get asked that a lot. You know, when we're talking to either prospects or some of our customers to say, hey, we have an older demographic here and we're not sure if this is right for them. And you know our response is always the same Like look, gamification is kind of behavioral science and through science we know that human nature is inclusive, meaning nobody's exempt from human nature, from human behavior, and we tap into part of it. It's curiosity.

Jimmy Chebat:

I think I've shared this story with you before. Actually it was your story that you shared I don't know if we shared it on the podcast here, but where one of our customers the longest standing customer, where their top performer would just refuse to go on the platform, and you were on an onsite visit. And during that visit you're like, hey, you've earned quite a few Z-Bucks in your wallet and you can go to the store and redeem those. And she was like, yeah, I don't care about that. And you're like, well, it's kind of a lot and if you go and just check it out, it's pretty meaningful, Like I think, $500 worth of Z-Bucks.

Jimmy Chebat:

And you got her to log in and immediately her eyes went to the leaderboard and she seen herself as number three or four. I forget what position she was in, but she was not number one, although she was a top performer and she led in almost every category. Oh yeah, in her mind she was number one. She was number one, for sure. And then she was like what is that? And you're like, oh, that's a leader. She's like, no, no, no, I understand what that is. Why am I here? And you're like well, you're not the top performer in that category. And you started taking her through all of the other leaderboards and you know, she wasn't number one and she was so motivated to be number one in every category. And she began checking in. And I think you can kind of tell us the rest, because it's I mean, it's your story.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Well, she began checking it regularly.

Andrew J. Reimers:

She began, she became one of our most engaged agents and realized that, wow, this is a job it's collections that she'd been doing her whole life and she was used to it. She was used to the grind, she was used to some of the negativity that comes along with it and, all of a sudden, the realization was there that not only is my company and my boss investing in me as an employee and letting me know that I do matter and everything I'm doing is important. She jumped to the top of the leaderboard. She continuously has ideas for new games, new ideas for ZIZO, and is constantly cashing out. One of my favorite things she did was one of the things in our reward store is a Barbie dream house, which came directly from her, that she was able to purchase for one of her children. And not only did she find the fun and then a new motivation when she came into work every day, but she's become one of our biggest brand ambassadors, telling everyone she knows about ZIZO because it has, to put in her terms, changed her work life. Yeah.

Jimmy Chebat:

Completely. I mean, it could definitely revitalize your thirst for a job that is can be mundane and competitive, especially in call centers, which is part of our focus, right that the job itself is usually not that exciting. And so how do you make the job exciting for people is to make it more engaging and to make it more competitive and to give people a sense of purpose and belonging. So, to answer the question great question it spans all demographics and if you look at all types of video game, Candy Crush is a game and it caters to usually older women, right, and which I believe that's the case.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Well, I'm not sure that was there in intent.

Jimmy Chebat:

Right, but there I mean, people are addicted to that game constantly. It's pushed as a free game, but they sell currency and to accelerate, you know, your advancement throughout the game. So, again, duolingo and almost all language apps use it to keep people engaged and coming back for more. So all demographics, nobody's exempt from human nature, and so gamification works for everybody. I love it. Gamification is for everybody. It is for everybody. Everybody should play games, right? I mean, just because you get older, it doesn't mean you stop playing, that's right. I reality's broken, guys. If you haven't read this book, Jane , we should tag her. Hopefully we'd love to have her as a guest. Please, one of the podcasts. I mean hashtag jane, she talks about it. Gaming is for everybody. I've got a question here looks like from james hart, uh, from motor city and the question is can gamification be too addictive and how can that be managed?

Andrew J. Reimers:

Can gamification be too addictive? Well, it depends on how you look at it. Now we've discussed gamification in a lot of different areas and realms of the world. Can roll up the rim to win, or Starbucks games and coffee. Can that become too addictive? Maybe, If you're hitting it up seven, eight, nine, 10 times a day. Is that the gamification? Or is that the caffeine, who's to say? When it comes to gamification being too addictive and we're talking about workplace gamification, which I think is primarily our focus here at ZIZO and on The ZIZO Effect podcast I'm not sure that it can be too addictive. However, we do offer special counseling for anyone who feels that way. I'd be curious to know your thoughts on this.

Jimmy Chebat:

I mean, like you said. I mean there's different types of gamification. There's gaming right, Video games, and you know, I have a son, Chase, who plays a lot of video games and do I think he's addicted, I think he enjoys it and I think he plays it a lot, and yet it's a subjective term.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Let me ask you this have you ever taken it away from him? How does he react?

Jimmy Chebat:

He scratches his head. I do poke fun at him for it, but I mean I used to play video games when I was young, when it first came out. You just play a lot. If you enjoy something, you do it a lot more frequently than you would do something that you don't enjoy. So I think, for the purposes of I think the question is more in relation to workforce gamification and I think if you have a staff that is engaged with their work and is having fun doing it and is performing and is competitive at it, then it's a good thing. I think if they're coming into work every day for a long period of time, that's kind of the behavior that you want Exactly. I don't think it's too addictive, is a negative thing. I think it could be a positive thing, exactly.

Andrew J. Reimers:

And people come into work and all of a sudden, there isn't a competition happening or something like that, and they might go to their manager and say, hey, you know what's going on. I want to play today, I'm ready, I feel like I'm. I'm feeling good, I'm going to have a great productive day and I think I can win. Uh, you know, are they addicted to it or are they just, you know, improving their overall performance? You know, you know, through gamification. So, yeah, no fantastic question. Thank you for uh, for writing it in. Um, let's see. Let's move on to the next one here. So we have Nyla R from Hollywood, florida, who actually got in touch with us, and Jimmy wanted to know how do you respond to claims that gamification is just a temporary trend without long-term benefits?

Jimmy Chebat:

That's a pointed question. So trend? So if you look at again I'm going to point back to Realities Broken and she talks extensively about the history of gamification and the success of gamification in a lot of different realms right. In retail and education and how it's becoming more mainstream across many different industries. I mean games. If you look at our back behind you there Battleship Yahtzee, monopoly, uno these things have been around for ages and they continue to still sell. I don't see it as a passing trend and that is going to go away. I think from again. If we're going back to in relation to work and workforce gamification, you know we talk about modernizing, you know workforce management and I think once this trend starts to really take hold and people see the effectiveness and how employees are happier and more productive and there's a culture built around it, I believe it'll be here to stay.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Yeah, I think gamification is more of something that became needed in the workplace. It's not a result of just oh, the latest cool trend. When I think of trends in my mind, I think of things like fashion, where it's almost cyclical, where you start to see the 80s came back, the 90s come back. Eventually you start to see those early 2000s, whatever it might be. Low rise jeans again who knows? Pinning your pants Do you remember that?

Andrew J. Reimers:

That's what I think of as trends. I don't see gamification in the workplace as a trend because I don't see that trend ending and then the outdated ways of managing people and the negative reinforcement that you talked about in the episode with Rich Gold coming back as being a part of the workplace again. I think gamification is here because it was necessary. It caters to the up and coming generation that is entering the workforce and the only time gamification might cease to exist in the workplace is because something new may come around with the next generation. But, like you said, I don't think it's going to be going anywhere. I think once people see the results, they see the lowered attrition, they see the increased motivation, they see the increased performance, why would you get rid of it?

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, it's part of the evolution, right? Exactly. I mean, if you go back to the history of work, we talked about this, especially during the Industrial Revolution People used to work, you know, 12 hour days. You know that's how, why unions were formed. So this is just that. Next generation of you know. The workplace has changed, the generation has changed, the needs have changed. So this is a solution that I think could be effective for a long period of time. Absolutely Cool, all right. So next question here this is from keeping the underscore from Buffalo, New York. So a local person says what are the most surprising benefits of gamification?

Andrew J. Reimers:

Surprising should be the key. Surprising, yes, and from our experience and correct me if I don't quite answer the question here, but I'm going to try Okay, because I know this is something that's been discussed, perhaps on the podcast, but maybe more with our customers and some of the feedback and things that we get, and that's really more about ZIZO as a gamification platform, right? So when I first started with the company and I realized exactly what we were doing here, after.

Andrew J. Reimers:

I'd been hired and you know I saw the gameplay and I saw the different styles and the way we get them short term, long term, you know, intermediate, everything like that. Like I was blown away and could only think, god, I wish I would have had this when I was doing collections, when I was doing inbound sales.

Andrew J. Reimers:

But I would say one of the most surprising benefits of gamification at least in the way that ZIZO does it is the insights into your personal production and your numbers on a daily basis. So gone are the days of having your manager come around and yell at you and tell you you're having a good day or maybe tell you you had a bad month last month. We've talked about that feedback loop a lot in the past, but I would say, for me personally, the most surprising benefit of gamification has truly been for our agents, our players that use ZIZO, to be able to self-manage. Because you say it all the time a younger generation that comes in. They want to be communicated with, but they don't want you to talk to them, and our platform provides just that. What about you? What do you think?

Jimmy Chebat:

I think you're absolutely right and I think you kind of put the disclaimer out there in the beginning. When you're answering, it's not necessarily surprising about gamification, but more about our platform. And when we talk to people, especially our prospects, we lead with gamification because that seems to be the buzzword that everybody's interested in. But it's a novel part of our and a very important part of our platform, of course. But it is that communication, it's that transparency, it's that real-time feedback loop that really keeps people coming back, the users, the agents, you know, the frontline workers who again want to be communicated with. What are my expectations? Where am I relative to those expectations? Where am I relative to my peers? How do I stand? Am I doing good or am I doing bad? And again, instead of getting that feedback at the end of the month or at the end of the year or maybe right before you get let go or terminated, you're getting that in real time. And the original tagline from the whiteboard was what?

Andrew J. Reimers:

Micromanagement without the micromanaging. Correct.

Jimmy Chebat:

And you've seen it and you've heard it from people that you talk with on a daily basis as a director of customer success. People begin to micromanage themselves. They are coming in each and every day and seeing all of this information and then managing their day accordingly. If they know they're underperforming, they're going to perform a little bit harder, they're going to work a little bit harder. So, yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. I think that the transparency and that real-time feedback loop is probably the most underrated component and the most spoken about by our customers.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Yeah, and actually thinking about it a little bit more. You know, you just sparked something in my head because it brings me back to a question that we had earlier about how gamification caters to different demographics. And actually I would say maybe not the most surprising, but a surprising element is we don't have to work that hard to get everybody to participate in this, whether you're young, whether you're old, whether you're female, male, it doesn't matter. It's for everybody, because it's all made and designed around making their lives better as workers, as employees, which in turn increases the bottom line for that company. So maybe not the most surprising, but kind of a surprising thing when you really think about how stubborn some people are when it comes to adopting new strategies.

Jimmy Chebat:

Absolutely and again, modernizing workforce management, so bringing a new tool to the table.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Yeah, and this one is actually almost related to a question we had earlier, but I do think it is still different enough to bring up. So we had LT from good old San Antonio who wanted to know doesn't gamification actually distract employees from their main tasks rather than enhancing productivity? And we touched on it a little bit. But maybe you could elaborate on that a little bit more for us.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah and this is a question that gets posed a lot in our sales processes like, hey, we don't want this to be a distraction, and my response usually is they're distracted anyways, and usually those distractions are technological in nature. They're on their cell phones, they're thinking about their home lives, they're contemplating whether they're going to quit or stay, and if they're disengaged and they're distracted by something else, regardless, right? So when you're using our platform, yes, it's got a lot of fun elements. We have 3D avatars, there's leaderboards, there's contests, there's that real-time feedback loop, and people come to our platform regularly to check to see after they do something, they complete a task or they successfully completed a task. They want to see that impact.

Jimmy Chebat:

Did it get me? Did it help me move up in the leaderboard? Did it help me get closer to winning the contest? Did I complete my milestone or break a record? And that feedback loop gives them that dopamine rush, because not only are they getting the recognition, but they're getting a reward along with it and that helps repeat that same behavior. So it is what we would categorize as a distraction if you're counting that as not working, but for me, if you're checking your statistics about your work, that is part of your job. Knowing where you are and what you need to do to be successful is part of the duties of your job.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Absolutely. And I laugh now because we're at a point when we do talk to prospective clients and things who are interested in partnering with ZIZO and bringing gamification into their culture and their workplace. Every time this question gets asked and, believe me, it is every single time we talk to somebody I can't even keep a poker face anymore. As soon as I hear it, I just become all smiles because I know what the answer is and I see it and I've heard you talk about that.

Andrew J. Reimers:

If you're not doing your job well and you're not putting in the time, you're not hitting the phones, you're not closing deals, you're not working to get better, you don't really want to be looking at ZIZO because the news you're getting isn't great. And what we see in response to that is people they aren't too distracted by ZIZO because they realize, oh shit, I'm at the bottom of the leaderboard, I can't have my friends or my boss see this, so I'm hitting the phone more and people, like you said, people are going to be distracted no matter what. I know I'm guilty of it. Everybody is, said in front of a CEO. But to be distracted with something that is actually involving your job and your numbers and things like that really is a benefit to the company.

Jimmy Chebat:

There's a book I reference a lot, especially to anybody that's starting to work with ZIZO. It's called Hooked, written by Nir Eyal, and we should put that up here. It's a must read for anybody. It's how to build a habit-forming product, and I'll try to keep this simple, but it's a trigger, leads to an action, which leads to a reward, which leads to an incentive. So think of it as a kind of four quadrants, and it's a constant loop. That trigger usually starts with an external trigger, right, and that external trigger is like a notification. And so think of any of your social media sites.

Jimmy Chebat:

If you get a notification on your phone that says Jimmy just posted a picture. I wish I got more of those Jimmy photo right, that picture of whatever it is that I'm doing that I wanted to share. And so then you make an investment and that investment is you're going to comment on it and you're going to like it, right, and that's going to lead to a trigger for me and I'm going to get that notification and say, hey, Andrew, just commented on your photo and my actions to click on that comment, see the comment. That's my reward. And maybe I put an investment and I like your comment and comment back. So that cycle is creating that addictive nature of that application. Right, Keeps you coming back for more.

Jimmy Chebat:

It is part of our formula, right. And so for ZIZO is, if you're, if the notification is that, hey, you just completed, you know your daily statistics and you click on that, or your daily challenges, and then you get a reward for that and you make that investment is I'm going to put more effort into my job so I can get that next level of reward. And ultimately, the goal is to replace the external notification, the external trigger, to become part of your emotional trigger, which is an internal, so you don't need an external trigger for you to want to go to the site and check on your statistics and check on, you know, your feed and you know your news feed and things like that. So it is considered. There's a lot of psychology built into all applications and how to build habits and that addictive quality and for us, we're trying to, you know, positive reaffirmation or positive feedback, you know, for people to get recognized and rewarded, which, again, if you become addicted to work, is that a bad thing?

Andrew J. Reimers:

Depends on who you ask. That's true, but no, I get your point. No fantastic, and I think we answered that question pretty well. I do too, maybe even too well, maybe too well.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yes, I'm going to go to the next. I'm actually going to go to one of the fun questions here that was asked and this is more of a personal one here and directed at you For you, Nate P, from Buffalo, New York. So we're getting a lot of local questions here. So, Andrew, you mentioned that you were Buffalo's only Johnny Cash impersonator. Can you tell us how that started and will you give us an example? I've been asking for this for the whole season.

Andrew J. Reimers:

I know, Wow. Well, I really appreciate it. Nate, Thank you for paying attention. You know I never. You know, it was brought up to me when this podcast was first starting about my brand and who I was going to be and we were going to be out there and honestly, I think it happened a little bit faster than I had anticipated. But as long as you're ready for story time with Andrew J Reimers, here we go.

Andrew J. Reimers:

So back in the pre-COVID days, I spent many years working as a musician a local musician here in Buffalo, in really an original music, writing my own music, writing my own songs, putting out records and stuff like that. So about 2016, I actually had a theater company reach out to me Musical Fair Theater Shout out to them in Amherst, New York. They reached out to me and they were interested in finding somebody because they were putting on a production of Million Dollar Quartet. So if you're not familiar with that show, it's a story about a real life day, December 4th 1956, in Sun Records, with Sam Phillips in Memphis, who actually had Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins and Johnny Cash all in the studio on the same day, impromptu, and they recorded. They got pretty wasted. They had a blast. There's actually recordings out there Now. The show is a lot more polished than these recordings, trust me.

Andrew J. Reimers:

But the reason they'd reached out was that they had two people who could do the Johnny Cash voice, but one guy wasn't tall enough, and, as you may or may not know, Johnny Cash and Elvis were both over six feet tall, which, especially in the fifties, was something, you know, pretty amazing. It was well above average, but they already had a six foot Elvis. They didn't have anyone to play a six foot Johnny Cash, and they asked if I had any acting experience, which I didn't, and I agreed, though, because what I lacked in acting experience I sure made up for in confidence and ego. So I did go into do an audition. It went okay, but it was enough, for the director said look, I think we can work with you. Would you be interested in doing this?

Andrew J. Reimers:

So, without getting into all the dirty details, I will say to anybody who has ever been in musical theater, to anybody that acts that sings publicly or whoever goes to witness musical theater, and take it in, what these people do is incredible. There was such a learning curve for me, but we sold out 36 out of 36 shows in the course of six weeks. It was a grind and it went so well that a couple of years later we brought it to another theater Shea 710 Theater in Buffalo, the former Studio Arena and we did 10 more shows there in a 500 capacity seat theater. Wow, Well, one thing I learned over the course of two years of theater was A I don't love musical theater.

Jimmy Chebat:

But you did it for two years. I respect it.

Andrew J. Reimers:

And I made money doing it and it was great. But I remember leaving that last show, walking down Main Street in the theater district of Buffalo, actually walking to Mohawk Place to go see some of my friends play, and I had an epiphany and I realized that, wait a second, I don't need somebody else to tell me to be Johnny Cash, I can just be Johnny Cash. So I created a website, I did a photo shoot, I learned I mean not every Johnny Cash song, because there's thousands of them, but I learned about four hours worth of Johnny Cash material of some of his most important songs, some of his most popular songs. I shaved my face, I did my hair, I dressed in black and I made it my full-time job. Whether it was bars, restaurants, clubs on the weekends, whether it was birthday parties, whether it was funerals, I played funerals. Or even going in during the day and playing in retirement facilities, nursing homes, places like that. Obviously, my audience was older.

Andrew J. Reimers:

I found a lot of success until the world shut down and I did, unfortunately, lose all of my gigs. I was forced to get a real job with the US Postal Service, which anyone who's been following along at home knows how I feel about that really proud of, because it was something I built myself. Maybe I'll get back into it. Truthfully, the reason I haven't is because I'm so happy in my position here that I don't miss it. But boy, it was pretty cool being Buffalo's only Johnny Cash impersonator for uh, for that short period of time and as far as an example, um, I'll have to see if I still have the voice. But uh, you just got to kind of get down a little bit like this. It's not quite a southern accent, it's more of just a little bit of a lack of enunciation.

Jimmy Chebat:

What about a line from a song? What was your favorite song to sing?

Andrew J. Reimers:

My favorite Johnny Cash song to sing, I'd have to say Big River. I taught the weeping willow how to cry and I showed the clouds how to cover up a clear blue sky. The tears, oh, I'm losing my breath.

Jimmy Chebat:

That's all you get, because otherwise we'll probably have to pay royalties we'll have to put that side by side by the real Johnny Cash and see how that pans out, but what an amazing story and that's awesome and uh it, I know. Covid destroyed a lot of different careers, businesses and lives, of course, but the dream shouldn't be dead. You can resurrect it.

Andrew J. Reimers:

I might someday. We'll see. But honestly, Nate, thank you so much for asking about that. It's something I'm really really proud of and I'd really love to share that story any chance I get. So thank you, awesome. Well, thanks for sharing, absolutely Well. In the spirit of fun questions, Jimmy, I have one for you that I'm going to be honest. I'd been thinking all along and in hindsight, if I was a better podcast host, perhaps I would have asked in the moment. Okay, but we had at Gamer Bro 840, who came to us on X, and I'm assuming the 840 is probably even double 420. Anyway, jimmy, you mentioned your addiction to buying ice cream not eating it, but buying ice cream, which is just fascinating in itself. But can you share your favorite and your least favorite flavors of ice cream?

Jimmy Chebat:

The favorite is going to be easy, and let me clarify for anybody who may have missed that episode.

Jimmy Chebat:

It's part of our fun facts. And you know, I've got a sweet tooth. I'm kind of a junk food addict Well, I used to be, but not as much. I can't lose the weight as fast and I gain it. Yes, I mean, I'm still trying to maintain, you know, my youthful body, but more of a struggle today than anything.

Jimmy Chebat:

But so I used to always buy ice cream and I would eat it all the time. So it was. It wasn't just that I bought it, but you know, as I got older and I wanted to eat less of it, I still bought it. And you know, when you have kids and you have a large family, somebody else will consume it. So it's not like it's going to waste.

Jimmy Chebat:

But no, my my favorite ice cream, probably, I don't want to say by far, but uh, is death by chocolate. It's a Perry's ice cream. Um, I like, I don't like a plain ice cream, I like, like chocolate chips and nuts and you know, this has, you know, kind of like brownie bits, uh, chocolate chips and chocolate covered almonds in a chocolate ice cream. So that is the one that I buy the most. Used to be Heavenly Hash. Okay, not a fan of the marshmallow in the Heavenly Hash. Uh, but with respect to the least favorite ice cream, I mean, I guess you would have to have bought it and then hated it to be on that list, right? Yeah, and I'm trying to think of one that, um, that just discussed it.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Yeah, because not only the flavor, but the disappointment, maybe, maybe it's a disappointment. Yeah, I'm trying to think.

Jimmy Chebat:

Um, that's a really good question and you know I bought like I explore a lot of ice cream. I will say there's one ice cream that I bought that I used to love. It was really in contention for my favorite. I'm trying to think of the brand that makes it Breyers, and they make them like the different candy bars, and they had one for Twix and it was absolutely amazing and then they just stopped making it. They make all of the other ones, they make Oreo, they make Heath, they make M&Ms, but this Twix one was just so good it was a chocolate ice cream with chocolate Twix bars and then they stopped making it. So along those lines, I think the Heath was the biggest disappointment for me because I loved the candy bar. The ice cream just didn't translate.

Andrew J. Reimers:

All right. So even your least favorite ice cream is still pretty good though, right, yeah, yeah, I would eat it.

Jimmy Chebat:

It's just not what you hoped. It would be the most disappointing.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Well, listen, once this really takes off and we sell for a trillion dollars, you can develop your own Heath ice cream to be exactly what the people want.

Jimmy Chebat:

No, I'll spend that money on resurrecting Twix.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Because it was a great ice cream. Fair enough, fair enough, excellent. Well, thank you so much for the honesty and transparency, jimmy, of course.

Jimmy Chebat:

All right, let's move on to the next question and we'll kind of go back to some of the more serious questions here.

Andrew J. Reimers:

We're all serious.

Jimmy Chebat:

Let me see, here we go. Liz Hute I don't know how to pronounce it hute, I'm just going to say hute, maybe the h is on liz hute, from sarasota springs, florida liz, how do you say your name? Just uh, write us back uh, anyway, from sarasota springs florida. How do companies keep their gamification strategies fresh and engaging?

Andrew J. Reimers:

how do companies keep their gamification strategies fresh and engaging? Now, this makes me think of companies who have yet to fully embrace the entire concept of gamification and incorporate it into every aspect of their business. So when I think of keeping it fresh and engaging, it brings me back to the days of whoever makes the most phone calls this month is going to win. Well, that doesn't stay fresh because what happens we've talked about it before the same people win every single time right and becomes demotivating. So how do you keep that fresh? Well, micro rewards, short-term competition. So maybe it's not who can make the most calls this month is the winner. Maybe it's who can make the most calls in the next four hours, because we need to push. Maybe who can close the most deals next week, because we have a certain package going on and we're expecting a lot of results and we want to capitalize on that, not running the same competitions all the time.

Andrew J. Reimers:

So instead of having one group competition for an entire month, we talked about rank levels and break. You know, not every KPI is created equally. Not every human being is created equally, whether it's you know, they're new, whether they're low performers, whether they're top performers. So you can create different competitions based on rank levels. So you can do one-on-one competitions, you can have team versus team, or maybe the company as a whole is having a slow month and rather than putting people against each other, you take these agents and players and you put them in a competition where, collectively, they accomplish this goal and they get out early on the last day of the month paid. It could be something like that.

Jimmy Chebat:

What about some ideas that you might have? So what you're basically saying is just buy ZIZO.

Andrew J. Reimers:

I was trying to say it without saying it.

Jimmy Chebat:

No, I think the most important part of everything that you just said is making it fair, objective and all-inclusive, meaning everybody has an opportunity to win and participate and get part of that budget right. And I think you know that's the reason why we developed it the way that we did is because the outdated method and the stuff that gets old pretty quickly is if it is the same people that constantly win, and most companies are going to reward for the performance of top performers and you're going to alienate the majority of your staff because you're only going to have a handful of top performers, and so you've got to find a way to level the playing field but keep it fair and objective, so that way your top performers still always have an opportunity, but it's a fair opportunity, and so do the you know the new people, the people who have just started. They want an opportunity or that middle performers you know your staff is going to. It's going to look like a bell curve.

Jimmy Chebat:

The majority of the people are going to be like average performers and you're going to have a handful of top performers and you're going to have a handful of low performers. If you give everybody a chance to participate and have an equal opportunity to win, and either through diversity of contests or just handicapping it, you're going to get way more engagement throughout your entire workforce and not just limit it to your top performers. So I agree wholeheartedly. ZIZO, it's fresh. Is that our new tagline?

Andrew J. Reimers:

No, gamification is for everyone. ZIZO is for everyone.

Andrew J. Reimers:

That should be our new tagline, but we'll work that out later. All right, so I think we have time for a couple of more questions. Okay, and honestly, jimmy, I kind of want to go back to a fun one here, because we have another one that's here for you. So now, this is from DMACC, actually coming all the way from Ukraine, just to as a testament to our international reach here on The ZIZO Effect podcast, and this is actually sort of a question for both of us, but I'll throw it to you first and then I'll answer as well. Sure, both of you often talk about the fun behind the scenes, jimmy. What is the most hilarious or unexpected thing that has happened during a podcast recording?

Jimmy Chebat:

That's an interesting one and, man, you're going to have to really push my memory here, I think for me, you know you're very open and honest, you know about your life, and when you're just open and honest and you share something personal, I think that to me, is the best part of this podcast is when you just expose some of that. You're vulnerable and that vulnerability kind of shows tonight and I want to keep more of that going. You know, I think, sharing about ourselves personally. That's why we do. The fun facts is we want people to get to know us, you know, on a personal, a personal level, and you know, so that we they can identify with us and relate with us. We're normal human beings, just like everybody else.

Andrew J. Reimers:

So I was thinking of it, because there's a few things that come to mind now. One of the best things that I've learned how to do over the course of this season and this is not a knock on our setup here Now we get a lot of compliments on our studio. I think we did an incredible job and you did an incredible job of really encapsulating what ZIZO is about, the mentality we have, the fun that we really want to promote in the workplace. But sometimes, man, you are on a roll and you are saying you're giving answers and describing things about gamification that are so insightful, that are so amazing, and I'm just sitting here like in awe.

Andrew J. Reimers:

And then I have to maintain my in awe face because behind you the sound panels are just falling off the wall and I don't want to cut it in the middle by laughing or being distracted, and that used to happen more, and now I think we got some better tape. Yeah, so there's always that it really is. It's hard to really, you know, pick out one thing, but this has been. I try to have fun in everything that I do, in case that's not apparent, but really this recording not only has been a learning experience, but I have had a blast, so we'll try to keep that forward. Maybe we'll start releasing a blooper reel in between seasons in the future.

Jimmy Chebat:

That would be fun and I think that's part of the culture that we're trying to promote. Right for our customers is have fun, be honest, be open. You know, be yourself, you know it's. You know life is short and you know if you want, work is hard, so have fun when you're working.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Exactly.

Jimmy Chebat:

So I love it Exactly.

Andrew J. Reimers:

All right, I think we have time for one more question. Would you like to take this one?

Jimmy Chebat:

um, yes, this is coming from kelsey k, from black rock, new york. Ah, kelsey, I know kelsey k, uh, and she's, she's great, and she's. She asked the question can gamification create unhealthy competition among employees, leading to workplace conflict?

Andrew J. Reimers:

okay, I know you have, but if you've ever been in a collection space or on a collections floor, I mean unhealthy is like before gamification and before you know things like this were being implemented in a more strategic and and thought out way. Yep, I mean unhealthy is a pretty good way to maybe describe the culture in collections for a long time.

Jimmy Chebat:

I would. Yeah, I don't want to kind of paint a broad stroke here against everybody, but I mean it is traditionally. I mean there's certain cultures that are traditionally gamified, right, certain industries that are traditionally gamified, and there is a wrong way to do it and when it is done wrong it is unhealthy.

Andrew J. Reimers:

That's what creates the unhealthy competition is like we alluded to before running the same competitions all the time, the same people, always winning, creates unhealthy competition and creates resentment on the floor, where you know, yes, gamification done wrong can create the unhealthy competition and workplace conflict. But if you are serious about gamification and all of its benefits and you're using the right platform whether it's ZIZO or no I'm just kidding there's no other platform. I think you know from our experiences and the feedback that we get and what I see with my own two eyes when I go and visit these customers in person, is that the culture legitimately changes. It's not something that we're just preaching and trying to sell a product or anything like that. People genuinely care about each other, people look to help other people, people look to improve their own statistics for the betterment of the company, and I can't think of a single example where somebody came back to us and said, yeah, ZIZO is like really cool in concept, but it's just destroyed our world here at our company.

Jimmy Chebat:

You know, that's nothing that's even anything remotely close to that has ever been said.

Jimmy Chebat:

And the question, I think you know, maybe stems from some of the traditional gamification, and I'll tell you, there's a lot of fail-safes that we put into ZIZO based on some of that experience which did lead to unhealthy cultures and workplace conflict, and a lot of that is based on subjectivity and trusting people to do a job or to create contests without bias, and it happens a lot in cultures that are just growing and you've got people who have relationships with one another.

Jimmy Chebat:

A lot of managers sometimes get promoted from being an agent because they're really good at their jobs and they were just promoted to a manager position but they weren't formally trained to become a manager, and that's just some risk there, and one of those risks is if they're also responsible for distributing your budget for incentives and building contests. A lot of times it's done based on their relationships with people that they've befriended in the workforce, and so we try to remove all of that biases, right, we try to create comprehensive contests so that way everybody's able to participate. But the answer to Kelsey's question is yes, it can, and so it's that we as a platform have designed it so that way it doesn't. So yes, absolutely, gamification could be destructive and harmful to a workforce.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Well, I'm grateful that you designed it that way and I'm grateful to be a part of it. I know we're running out of time for more questions, but we do have one more round of name the game that we need to get to.

Jimmy Chebat:

I'm not participating in this right. You're not. No, you have to. Okay, let's do it. All right, let's just do it, even though.

Andrew J. Reimers:

I am the grand champion of Name the Game, season 1, with an overwhelming score of 3 out of 12.

Jimmy Chebat:

Did great.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Solid 250 batting average. But just for the fun of it and just for our friends at home, we've been following along. Thank you so much. We're going to play one more round to name the game and then we are going to call it a season. Make sure you tune in sometime in August of 2024 for season two of The ZIZO Effect podcast and who knows what's in store.

Jimmy Chebat:

Yeah, I'm excited. We've got a lot of ideas that we've been talking about, and season two is going to be different it is, so we'll leave you with this, emma, if you would.

Andrew J. Reimers:

Metroid, is it Metroid I?

Jimmy Chebat:

knew it. That was one of my favorite games. Now, hold on, there were three Metroids. First one Is it the first one? Oh, good one. How did I pull that one out? I was addicted to that game. I would not stop playing through the wee hours of the night. I remember it came out and that summer we would just stay up all night and play it, and I think that was a time in my life where we would call flip games, that's when games actually ended, we could actually finish a game. We would stay up until we finished a game, and that would be sometimes 5, 6, 7 in the morning, and then we'd have to go out and buy another game and we'd go collect cans to try to find the money, because my parents would not buy me games. They would be like, hey, you can go get a job and buy it yourself.

Andrew J. Reimers:

And you know what you did. I did. I definitely did Well, jimmy. This has been amazing. Season one of The ZIZO Effect podcast is a wrap. Thank you so much for convincing me to do this. I really had a wonderful time. I'm really looking forward to where we're going to be going next. As I've said in the past, it's an honor to call you a colleague and a friend, and I will see you down the road. Thank you everybody for tuning in this season and we're really looking forward to season two.

Andrew J. Reimers:

As we wrap up this final episode of the inaugural season of The ZIZO Effect, we want to extend our heartfelt thanks to all our listeners for joining us on this incredible journey through the world of gamification, from exploring its history and impact to sharing best practices and personal stories. It's been an amazing ride and we couldn't have done it without you. But don't worry, this isn't the end. It's just the beginning. We're thrilled to announce that season two of The ZIZO Effect podcast will be dropping in August of 2024. Stay tuned for more expert insights, exciting interviews and actionable strategies to make your workplace more engaging and productive. We can't wait to continue this adventure with you. Thank you for being a part of The ZIZO Effect and until next time, keep playing, keep innovating and remember it's always game time.

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Andrew Reimers

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Jimmy Chebat

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